Alekhine vs. Kramnik

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Date: 22 Mar 2006 14:21:23
From: EG
Subject: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

If Kramnik played Alekhine, who would win?

They are both super GMs and world champions.

Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.

Date: 25 Mar 2006 16:18:51
From: Jerzy
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Uzytkownik "EG" <[email protected] > napisal w wiadomosci
news:[email protected]...
> If Kramnik played Alekhine, who would win?
>
> They are both super GMs and world champions.

Kramnik is not a legal one.

> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.

How did you find out that Alekhine invented Berlin Defence ?? He was a much
more aggressive player and he used to play much more dynamic openings.

Date: 24 Mar 2006 20:35:11
From: Knight1
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

EG Wrote:
> If Kramnik played Alekhine, who would win?
>
> They are both super GMs and world champions.
>
> QUOTE]
>
> IF Alekhine defeated Capablanca then Alex would destroy Kramni

--
Knight1

Date: 25 Mar 2006 09:59:21
From: Luigi Caselli
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

"Knight1" <[email protected] > ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email protected]...
>
> EG Wrote:
> > If Kramnik played Alekhine, who would win?
> >
> > They are both super GMs and world champions.
> >
> > QUOTE]
> >
> > IF Alekhine defeated Capablanca then Alex would destroy Kramnik

Yes, and

if Alex defeated Alekhine then
Kramnik would destroy Capablanca...
else
EG questions are the worst of year
endif

Luigi Caselli

Date: 24 Mar 2006 00:06:15
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

EG wrote:
> If Kramnik played Alekhine, who would win?
>
> They are both super GMs and world champions.
>
> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik
> "borrowed" so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.

So far their score is even.

Alechine still needs a few years of hectoliters
(if you know what I mean) before he dares to
challenge Kramnik, who may retire in the meantime.

*********

Wlod

Date: 23 Mar 2006 19:38:50
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Ian Burton wrote:
> Where'd you get the idea Alekhine invented the Berlin Defense?
> That's simply ridiculous..

Welcome to rgcm!

:-)

Wlod

Date: 23 Mar 2006 16:29:10
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

James wrote:
> You are absolutely right, I messed up with colors.
> I have in fact three games with Alekhine playing black:
> Kan,V - Alekhine, Moscow 1909

That appears to be correct, per Skinner & Verhoeven. One of
Alekhine's early club tournaments. After 4.0-0 a6 Bxc6 dxc6 it seems to
have transposed out of the realm of a Berlin Defense per se.

> Grigoriev Nicolai, Alekhine, Moscow 1919

Yes, as already indicated.

> Kimuto, Alekhine, Tokyo 1933

S & K list this a consultation game, Kimuto and unnamed allies vs.
Alekhine, blindfold simul, Tokyo January 20 1933, but also say there is
some doubt about the game's actual circumstances; it may have been
played in Shangahi, China. In any event, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5
Nf6 4.Nc3 Bb4 it transposed into a Four Knights Opening and lost any
significance as a Berlin Defense to the Ruy L=F3pez.

Date: 23 Mar 2006 09:37:46
From: Ian Burton
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Where'd you get the idea Alekhine invented the Berlin Defense? That's
simply ridiculous..
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)

"EG" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If Kramnik played Alekhine, who would win?
>
> They are both super GMs and world champions.
>
> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.
>

Date: 23 Mar 2006 12:34:24
From: Steve Grant
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

"EG" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If Kramnik played Alekhine, who would win?
>
> They are both super GMs and world champions.

Kramnik would win easily. After all, Alekhine's been dead for sixty
years.

Now Peter Leko, on the other hand ....

Date: 23 Mar 2006 04:33:28
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Chess One wrote:
> "Taylor Kingston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > How did he accomplish that, if he played it only once in a
> > little-known match in 1919, that got little publicity outside Russia?
>
> He gave it 'an outing'. Probably didn't get enough action from it, besides,
> his other problem was to how to defeat the hypermodernists.
> The same lapsus occured in the KID, when it was given up for dead in the
> late 20s, then in the late 30s sove Soviet players found considerable new
> resources, which didn't see the light of day until way after WWII.

Checking my databases, I see no indication of any "lapsus" in the
Berlin Defense. It seems to have been played quite steadily for nearly
two centuries. I don't see much indication that it has ever been either
very fashionable or totally out of fashion.

Date: 23 Mar 2006 13:25:33
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

"Taylor Kingston" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Chess One wrote:
>> "Taylor Kingston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > How did he accomplish that, if he played it only once in a
>> > little-known match in 1919, that got little publicity outside Russia?
>>
>> He gave it 'an outing'. Probably didn't get enough action from it,
>> besides,
>> his other problem was to how to defeat the hypermodernists.
>> The same lapsus occured in the KID, when it was given up for dead in the
>> late 20s, then in the late 30s sove Soviet players found considerable new
>> resources, which didn't see the light of day until way after WWII.
>
> Checking my databases, I see no indication of any "lapsus" in the
> Berlin Defense. It seems to have been played quite steadily for nearly
> two centuries. I don't see much indication that it has ever been either
> very fashionable or totally out of fashion.

I suppose that is a point worth making. Well, not exactly a point, but a
something. Phil Innes

Date: 24 Mar 2006 00:25:44
From: Roadkill
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

"EG" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If Kramnik played Alekhine, who would win?
>
> They are both super GMs and world champions.
>
> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.
>

So, everyone who plays the Nimzo-Indian is worse than Nimzowitsch ??
Everyone who plays the Sicilian is worse than Greco ?
Everyone who plays the Philidor ... oh wait, that's true ...

Date: 23 Mar 2006 14:27:02
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Roadkill <[email protected] > wrote:
> So, everyone who plays the Nimzo-Indian is worse than Nimzowitsch ??
> Everyone who plays the Sicilian is worse than Greco ?
> Everyone who plays the Philidor ... oh wait, that's true ...

Man, I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Impossible Miniature Monk (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a man of God but you can hold in
it your hand and it can't exist!

Date: 23 Mar 2006 04:08:58
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

James wrote:
> [email protected] wrote :
> > EG wrote:
> >> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
> >> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.
> >
> > Not true at all. The Berlin Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6) was
> > widely played decades before Alekhine was born. He almost never played
> > it himself, the only known instance being against Grigoriev, August
> > 1919 in Moscow.
> >
> I have another game, against Bernstein, Saint Petersburg, 1914.

N/A. Alekhine plays White in that game.

Date: 24 Mar 2006 00:41:57
From: James
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Taylor Kingston wrote :
> James wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote :
>>> EG wrote:
>>>> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
>>>> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.
>>> Not true at all. The Berlin Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6) was
>>> widely played decades before Alekhine was born. He almost never played
>>> it himself, the only known instance being against Grigoriev, August
>>> 1919 in Moscow.
>>>
>> I have another game, against Bernstein, Saint Petersburg, 1914.
>
> N/A. Alekhine plays White in that game.
>

You are absolutely right, I messed up with colors.
I have in fact three games with Alekhine playing black:
Kan,V - Alekhine, Moscow 1909
Grigoriev Nicolai, Alekhine, Moscow 1919
Kimuto, Alekhine, Tokyo 1933

That doesn't make a lot of games anyway...

The players who often used it in the past were Anderssen, Zukertort and
Lasker.

Here are scid statistics (with chesslib.no database):
http://www.chess-lovers.org/scid/c65a.html

Date: 22 Mar 2006 15:22:21
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Chess One wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > EG wrote:
> >> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
> >> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.
> >
> > Not true at all. The Berlin Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6) was
> > widely played decades before Alekhine was born. He almost never played
> > it himself, the only known instance being against Grigoriev, August
> > 1919 in Moscow.
>
> Muller-Behting, 1899.

I can find no such game. The closest match seems to be
Moller-Giersing, Nordic Congress 1899 (1-0, 17).

> It is an adaptation from Polerio who played the same move in a Vienna [with
> #. Bc4 in 1850].

This seems unlikely, since Polerio died in 1612. You trying to pull
my leg, Phil?

Date: 23 Mar 2006 12:04:15
From: Chess One
Subject: Polerio, Leonardo, Lopez Greco, a question...

"Taylor Kingston" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Chess One wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > EG wrote:
>> >> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
>> >> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.
>> >
>> > Not true at all. The Berlin Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6) was
>> > widely played decades before Alekhine was born. He almost never played
>> > it himself, the only known instance being against Grigoriev, August
>> > 1919 in Moscow.
>>
>> Muller-Behting, 1899.
>
> I can find no such game. The closest match seems to be
> Moller-Giersing, Nordic Congress 1899 (1-0, 17).
>
>> It is an adaptation from Polerio who played the same move in a Vienna
>> [with
>> #. Bc4 in 1850].
>
> This seems unlikely, since Polerio died in 1612. You trying to pull
> my leg, Phil?

:)
just checking if anyone is awake to an origin [and the move is indeed
attributable to Polerio over 250 years earlier]

Polerio was an apprentice of Leonardo, or a sort. Much is owed to Polerio
for correcting the outright lies and exaggerations of Boi, Salvio and
Carrera - Boi, eg, contrived to play chess on horseback against 'the Arabs'
who did not actually play chess at the time. Both Salvio and Boi were 'taken
by pirates', and so on...

He also seemed to be the recorder of a game Leonardo v Lopez, which may have
been as early as 1560.

Apart from the court of Madrid, the other patron of chess at this time was
in Italy, Giacomo Buoncompagno, Duke of Sora who also dies in 1612, and who
was the illegitimate son of Pope Gregory XIII. I think the Buoncompagno
family still possess two original Polerio manscripts.

This was a high point in the 'invention of openings' despite considerable
printing difficulties, and Sam Sloan might be interested to know that
Damiano was REpublished in 1606 [Bologna], and Tarsia's Lopez [1584].

Polerio was interesting particualrly because his analysis was so much better
than anyone else's. But also secret! Not widely known and in fact closely
held. Some MSS of the time required the author as a sort of mentor [paid, of
course] to unravel the secrets... which were as encoded as a Portugese
rutter.

Nothin much happened in northern Europe pre 1610, which was pretty much
limited to Tarsia's Lopez, an inferior work to that of Polerio. This
situation was eventaully relieved by Greco, who travelled north, hung out in
Paris and in London a decade later.

In 1621 he was at the French court, and in 1622 or 1623 in London. He made
quite a stash by chess-teaching select rich clients. Unlike other books,
Greco's made no concessions at all to the weak player, and can be seen to
have distributed some of the high-level Polerio material, or material of
equal intensity and depth to stimulate more serious play in Northern Europe.

A Question...

I should be interested to learn from anyone here what they know of the fate
of Greco. His last sure sighting was in Paris in 1624, and then is thought
to have gone to Spain. It is said, if later writers are to be believed -
that is, retrospective writing of unclear provenance and date - that he went
to the West Indies and died there about 1630.

There is no certain evidence that he did so, and no established motive for
doing so either.

Cordially, Phil Innes

Date: 22 Mar 2006 15:05:13
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Chess One wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > EG wrote:
> >> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
> >> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.
> >
> > Not true at all. The Berlin Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6) was
> > widely played decades before Alekhine was born. He almost never played
> > it himself, the only known instance being against Grigoriev, August
> > 1919 in Moscow.
>
> Muller-Behting, 1899.

Heck, it goes back way before then, Phil. The first examples I have
date from no later than London 1851, with Anderssen, Staunton, Szen and
Horwitz playing it. Morphy too, at New York 1857.

> It is an adaptation from Polerio who played the same move in a Vienna [with
> #. Bc4 in 1850]. What Alekhine did was ressurect it to current tournament
> play.

How did he accomplish that, if he played it only once in a
little-known match in 1919, that got little publicity outside Russia?
Nor is it mentioned in his "Best Games 1908-1923."

> Gulko plays it.

True.

Date: 23 Mar 2006 11:19:58
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Date: 22 Mar 2006 14:31:58
From:
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

EG wrote:
> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.

Not true at all. The Berlin Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6) was
widely played decades before Alekhine was born. He almost never played
it himself, the only known instance being against Grigoriev, August
1919 in Moscow.

Date: 23 Mar 2006 01:31:17
From: James
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

[email protected] wrote :
> EG wrote:
>> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
>> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.
>
> Not true at all. The Berlin Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6) was
> widely played decades before Alekhine was born. He almost never played
> it himself, the only known instance being against Grigoriev, August
> 1919 in Moscow.
>
I have another game, against Bernstein, Saint Petersburg, 1914.

Date: 22 Mar 2006 22:48:24
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> EG wrote:
>> Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
>> so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.
>
> Not true at all. The Berlin Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6) was
> widely played decades before Alekhine was born. He almost never played
> it himself, the only known instance being against Grigoriev, August
> 1919 in Moscow.

Muller-Behting, 1899.

It is an adaptation from Polerio who played the same move in a Vienna [with
#. Bc4 in 1850]. What Alekhine did was ressurect it to current tournament
play. Gulko plays it.

Phil

Date: 23 Mar 2006 02:00:38
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Alekhine vs. Kramnik

Chess One wrote:
>>>Alekhine invented the Berlin defense which Kramnik "borrowed"
>>>so obviously Alekhine is the most talented.

The Berlin defense of the Ruy Lopez has its name because it was analyzed =

by the players of the Berlin Chess School, also known as "The Pleiades". =

They were the foremost players of the Berliner Schachgesellschaft in the =

middle of the 19th century. The Pleiades consisted of Ludwig Bledow,=20
Karl Schorn, Bernhard Horwitz, Carl Mayet, Wilhelm Hanstein, Paul=20
Rudolph von Bilguer and Baron Tassilo von Heydebrand und der Lasa. The=20
last two wrote a famous chess book, the Bilguer handbook of chess. The=20
club often had guests masters like Adolf Anderssen, Max Lange, Jean=20
Dufresne and Carl Friedrich J=E4nisch.

Here is a chess game featuring two players of the Pleiades playing the=20
Berlin defense:

[Site "Berlin"]
[Date "1840.??.??"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Von Der Lasa Tassilo"]
[Black "Hanstein Wilhelm"]
[ECO "C65"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O Bd6
5.Bxc6 dxc6 6.d4 Bg4 7.Qd3 Bxf3 8.gxf3 Nh5
9.Nc3 exd4 10.Ne2 Qh4 11.Ng3 O-O 12.Qxd4 Rfd8
13.Qc3 Nxg3 14.fxg3 Bxg3 15.hxg3 Qxg3+ 16.Kh1 Rd6
17.Qe1 Qh3+ 18.Kg1 Rg6+ 19.Kf2 Rg2+ 20.Ke3 f5
21.e5 Rxc2 22.Bd2 Rd8 23.Bc3 f4 24.Kxf4 Qh6+
25.Ke4 Qg6+ 26.Kf4 Qh6+ 27.Ke4 Rh2 28.Rd1 Rh4+
29.f4 Qg6+ 30.Ke3 Rh3+ 31.Rf3 Rxf3+ 32.Kxf3 Rxd1
33.Qe2 Rd3+ 0-1

Certainly not Kramnik style.

Claus-Juergen