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Date: 23 Aug 2006 11:24:16
From: Peter Billam
Subject: 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.e3 d5
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Greetings. To replace my ageing 4. g3, I've been looking at
1.c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 (A28)
and Carsten Hansen says in "Guide to the English Opening: 1...e5" p.115
4... d5?! (this is a frequently occuring mistake; White does not win
any material but gains the initiative and obtains the better pawn
structure) 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. Bb5 Nxc3 7. bc3 and now:
b1) 7... e4 8. Ne5 Qd5 9. Qa4 Bd7 10. Nxd7 Kxd7 11. Rb1 ... $16
Onishchul-Lengyel, Budapest 1993
b2) 7.. Bd6 8. d4 (8. e4!?) 8... Bd7 9. O-O (9. e4 ed4 10. cd4 Bb4+
11. Bd2 Bxd2+ 12. Qxd2 O-O 13. O-O $14 Nimzowitsch-Spielmann,
Berlin 1928) 9... O-O ...
Well that's encouraging, but I've been looking at this and I can't see
any White advantage. I agree about 7...e4 being bad, because White can
improve on Onishchul-Lengyel:
1.c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 d5 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. Bb5 Nxc3 7. bc3
e4 8. Ne5 Qd5 9. Qa4 Bd7 10. Nxd7 Kxd7 11. Bc4 (! N and now:)
11... Qg5 12. O-O Bd6 13. f4
13... Qa5 14. Qc2 Qf5 15. Rb1 b6 16. Rb5 Bc3 17. d3 Rad8
18. Ba3! a6 19. dxe4 Qg6 20. Rxc5 bxc5 21. Bxa6 $16
13... Qh5 14. Rb1 Rab8 15. Rb5 f5 16. Bd5 Qg6 17. Rxb7 Bc5
18. Rb5 Qd6 19. c4 $16
13... ef3 14. Rxf3 f6 15. Rb1 Qe5 16. Rh3 Rab8 17. Rb5 Qe7 $16
11... Qf5 12. Rb1 Rb8 13. Rb5 Bc5 14. Ba3 b6 15. Bxc5 bc5 16. O-O Qe5
17. f3 f5 18. fe4 fe4 19. Rxb8 Rxb8 20. Qd1 Ne6 21. d4 $16
But I can't find anything for White after
1.c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 d5 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. Bb5 Nxc3 7. bc3 Bd6!
I'm not sure about 8. d4. For example Black could try
8. d4 e4 9. Nd2 Qg5 10. Bxc6+ bxc6 11. Qa4 Bd7 (11.. O-O!? 12. Qxc6 Qxg2
13. Qxe4 Bb7 14. Qxg2 Bxg2 15. Rg1 Bc6 16. f4 Rab8 17. Rb1 Rxb1 18. Nxb1)
12. O-O O-O 13. Nxe4 Bxh2+ 14. Kxh2 =
If White wants to "obtain the better pawn structure" then this could be
the last chance to get it. But the c-pawns are useful to Black, they
can be thrown at White's big centre:
8. Bxc6+ bc6 9. e4 O-O 10. O-O f5 11. d4 fxe4 12. Nxe5 Qe8 13. f4
13... ef3 14. Rxf3 Rxf3 15. Qxf3 Bxe5 16. dxe5 Qxe5 17. Ba3
17... Qe8 18. Bc4 Ba6 19. Qf2 =
13... c5! 14. Qe2 cd4 15. Qxe4 Ba6 16. Rf3 dc3 17. Be3 Rb8
18. Rh3 h6 19. Bd4 c2 20. Rc1 Bb7 21. Qe3 Bd5 $17
So I mainly looked at Hansen's 8. e4 (like Nimzowitsch's 9.e4). Black can
play 8... Bd7 to prevent the doubled pawns, or play 8... O-O to ignore
the threat. Both seem to give White nothing :-( After 7... Bd6 8. e4
8... Bd7
9. d4
9... ed4?! 10. cd4
10... Bb4+ 11. Bd2 a5 (or Bxd2+ see Spielmann) 12. a3 Bxd2+
13. Qxd2 O-O 14. O-O Qe7 15. Rfe1 Ne5 16. Nxe5 Bxb5 17. a4 $16
10... O-O 11. O-O a6 12. Bxc6 Bxc6 13. Re1 Re8 14. d5 Bd7
15. Rb1 Rb8 16. e5 Bf5?! 17. ed6 Bxb1 18. Bf4 $16
10... a6 11. Bxc6 Bxc6 12. d5 Bd7 13. O-O O-O 14. Re1 Bg4
15. Bb2 $14
9... O-O 10. Bxc6 Bxc6 11. dxe5 Be7 12. Qc2 Bb5
13. c4 Bb4+ 14. Bd2 Bxd2+ 15. Qxd2 Bxc4 16. Qc3 =
9. O-O O-O 10. d3 a6 11. Ba4 b5 12. Bb3 (is very Lopez-like)
12... Bg4 13. Bd5 Qd7 14. Bd2 Ba3 15. Bxc6 Qxc6 16. Nxe5 Bxd1
17. Nxc6 Be2 18. Bc1!? Bxf1 19. Kxf1 Bc5 20. d4 $14
12... Na5 13. d4 Bg4 14. dxe5 Bxf3 15. Qxf3 Bxe5 16. Bf4 Qf6
17. Bxe5 Qxe5 18. Rfd1 Nxb3 19. axb3 Rad8 20. b4 =
8... O-O 9.
9. Bc6 bc6 10. O-O f5 11. d4 (Qe2) fe4 12. Nxe5 Qe8 13. f4 c5!
see 8. Bxc6 above
9. O-O
9... Bd7 10. d3 see 8... Bd7 above
9... Bg4 10. d4 ed4 11. Bxc6 bc6 12. cd4 Re8 13. e5 Be7
14. Bf4 Rb8 15. Rc1 Qd5 16. Qe2 Rb4 17. Rfd1 Reb8
18. Be3 R8b6 19. Rc2 Rb1 20. Rcd2 $15
9... Re8 10. d3 Bg4 11. Be3 looks equal to me; perhaps
11... Qd7 with the idea ..a6; White has no particular plan.
If this 4... d5?! is really a "mistake", can someone show me why ?
Regards, Peter
--
AUS/TAS/DPIW/CIT/Servers hbt/lnd/l8 6233 3061 http://www.pjb.com.au
Pasar�, pasar�mos dice el agua y canta la verdad contra la piedra
-- Pablo Neruda
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 19:28:31
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.e3 d5
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Peter Billam wrote:
> On 2006-08-24, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> > 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 d5 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. Bb5 Nxc3
> > 7. bc3 Bd6 8. d4 e4 9. d5 a6
> >
> > ... Let's rewind back to 9...a6 and look at other options.
> > 9...a6 10.dxc6 axb5 11.Qd5 and then....
> > 11...bxc6 12.Qxc6+ Bd7 13.Qxe4+
> > 11...dxc6 12.cxb7 Rb8 13.bxc8=Q Qxc8 14.Qxf3
> > 11...O-O 12.cxb7 Bxb7 13.Qxb7 exf3 14.Qxf3
> > White looks fine in these lines!
> >
> In the last line, gnuchess thinks Black has good compensation for the
> pawn, because of White's poor development, e.g.
Rybka says 8.e4 is sounder than 8.d4. I think I'll choose 8.e4 in my
own games, though both do well in practice.
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 13:47:58
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.e3 d5
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On 2006-08-28, [email protected] <[email protected] > wrote:
> Peter Billam wrote:
> > 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 d5 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. Bb5 Nxc3
> > 7. bc3 Bd6 8. d4 e4 9. d5 a6
>
> Rybka says 8.e4 is sounder than 8.d4. I think I'll choose 8.e4 in my
> own games, though both do well in practice.
I agree :-) And Nimzowitsch thought e4 advisable on the next move anyway
(8. d4 Bd7 9. e4 ed4 10. cd4 Bb4+ 11. Bd2 Bxd2+ 12. Qxd2 O-O 13. O-O $14
Nimzowitsch-Spielmann, Berlin 1928)
But then I think Black can equalize quite easily: either
8... Bd7
9. d4 O-O 10. Bxc6 Bxc6 11. dxe5 Be7 12. Qc2 Bb5
13. c4 Bb4+ 14. Bd2 Bxd2+ 15. Qxd2 Bxc4 16. Qc3 =
9. O-O O-O 10. d3 a6 11. Ba4 b5 12. Bb3 (very Lopez-like)
12... Na5 13. d4 Bg4 14. dxe5 Bxf3 15. Qxf3 Bxe5 16. Bf4 Qf6
17. Bxe5 Qxe5 18. Rfd1 Nxb3 19. axb3 Rad8 20. b4 =
or
8... O-O 9.
9. Bc6 bc6 10. O-O f5 11. d4 (Qe2) fe4 12. Nxe5 Qe8 13. f4 c5!
14. Qe2 cd4 15. Qxe4 Ba6 16. Rf3 dc3 17. Be3 Rb8
18. Rh3 h6 19. Bd4 c2 20. Rc1 Bb7 21. Qe3 Bd5 $17
9. O-O
9... Bd7 10. d3 see 8... Bd7 above
9... Re8 10. d3 Bg4 11. Be3 looks equal to me; perhaps
11... Qd7 with the idea ..a6; White has no particular plan.
9... Bg4 10. d4 ed4 11. Bxc6 bc6 12. cd4 Re8 13. e5 Be7
14. Bf4 Rb8 15. Rc1 Qd5 16. Qe2 Rb4 17. Rfd1 Reb8
18. Be3 R8b6 19. Rc2 Rb1 20. Rcd2 $15
Are there improvments for White in these lines ?
The results aren't so reliable when there are relatively few games to
go on. I fear 4...d5 might be worth a revival, and I certainly don't
think it deserves Carsten Hansen's "this is a frequently occuring
mistake" comment (presumably the conventional wisdom).
Regards, Peter
--
AUS/TAS/DPIW/CIT/Servers hbt/lnd/l8 6233 3061 http://www.pjb.com.au
Pasar�, pasar�mos dice el agua y canta la verdad contra la piedra
-- Pablo Neruda
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Date: 23 Aug 2006 20:59:50
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.e3 d5
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Peter Billam wrote:
> > 9.d5 is a more aggressive. I think it's a better reply.
> > Black may be one tempo ahead on the attack, but White's bishop will
> > save the day. Eg, 9.d5 exf3 10. dxc6 fxg2 11.cxb7+!
>
> And that's why Black would reply (after 8. d4 e4 9. d5)
> 9... a6 10. Bf1 ef3 11. dc6 fg2 12. Bxg2 b6
> 13. Qd4 O-O 14. O-O Qg5 (or Re8 first)
10.Bf1 {preserving the bishop pair} exf3 11.dxc6 fxg2 12.Bxg2 b6 13.Qd4
O-O. I'd call this -1.20. White has isolated a-, c-, and h-pawn and
doubled c-pawns. His endgame looks hopeless. His middlegame looks
fine, however. His advanced c-pawn helps cramps Black's position. He
has a relatively safe king and open lines for attack.
> and Black stands better in both the middle-game and the end-game.
Crafty recommends 14.O-O, but I'm convinced it's a strategic error.
Instead, White should play Bb2, O-O-O, c4, Rg1, etc making war against
Black's kingside. Black will have to defend carefully to survive
White's onslaught without creating weaknesses.
Let's rewind back to 9...a6 and look at other options.
9=2E..a6 10.dxc6 axb5 11.Qd5 and then....
11...bxc6 12.Qxc6+ Bd7 13.Qxe4+
11...dxc6 12.cxb7 Rb8 13.bxc8=3DQ Qxc8 14.Qxf3
11...O-O 12.cxb7 Bxb7 13.Qxb7 exf3 14.Qxf3
White looks fine in these lines!
> Pasar=E9, pasar=E9mos dice el agua y canta la verdad contra la pied=
ra
> -- Pablo Neruda
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 07:53:40
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.e3 d5
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On 2006-08-24, [email protected] <[email protected] > wrote:
> Peter Billam wrote:
> > 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 d5 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. Bb5 Nxc3
> > 7. bc3 Bd6 8. d4 e4 9. d5 a6
>
> ... Let's rewind back to 9...a6 and look at other options.
> 9...a6 10.dxc6 axb5 11.Qd5 and then....
> 11...bxc6 12.Qxc6+ Bd7 13.Qxe4+
> 11...dxc6 12.cxb7 Rb8 13.bxc8=Q Qxc8 14.Qxf3
> 11...O-O 12.cxb7 Bxb7 13.Qxb7 exf3 14.Qxf3
> White looks fine in these lines!
>
In the last line, gnuchess thinks Black has good compensation for the
pawn, because of White's poor development, e.g.
13... Be5
14.e4 b4 15.Bd2 b3 (idea b2) 16.Bf4 Bxf4 17.Qxf4 b2 18.Rb1 Rxa2 $17
14. O-O b4!? (or Bxc3)
15. Rd1 Qh4 16. g3 Qc4
15. Qe2 Re8 16. Rd1 Qf6
Regards, Peter
--
AUS/TAS/DPIW/CIT/Servers hbt/lnd/l8 6233 3061 http://www.pjb.com.au
Pasar�, pasar�mos dice el agua y canta la verdad contra la piedra
-- Pablo Neruda
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Date: 23 Aug 2006 13:30:00
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.e3 d5
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Peter Billam wrote:
> But I can't find anything for White after
> 1.c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 d5 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. Bb5 Nxc3 7. bc3 Bd6!
> I'm not sure about 8. d4. For example Black could try
According to my database, after 8.d4, White scores +44, =3D23, -13. Any
line where White scores 69% is very convincing.
> 8. d4 e4 9. Nd2 Qg5 10. Bxc6+ bxc6 11. Qa4 Bd7 (11.. O-O!? 12. Qxc6 Qxg2
9=2Ed5 is a more aggressive. I think it's a better reply.
> If this 4... d5?! is really a "mistake", can someone show me why ?
Black may be one tempo ahead on the attack, but White's bishop will
save the day. Eg, 9.d5 exf3 10. dxc6 fxg2 11.cxb7+!
> Pasar=E9, pasar=E9mos dice el agua y canta la verdad contra la pied=
ra
> -- Pablo Neruda
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Date: 24 Aug 2006 10:19:20
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.e3 d5
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On 2006-08-23, [email protected] <[email protected] > wrote:
> Peter Billam wrote:
>> But I can't find anything for White after
>> 1.c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 d5 5. cd5 Nxd5 6. Bb5 Nxc3 7. bc3 Bd6!
>
>> I'm not sure about 8. d4. For example Black could try ...
>> 8. d4 e4 9. Nd2 Qg5 10. Bxc6+ bxc6 11. Qa4 Bd7 (11.. O-O!? 12. Qxc6 Qxg2
>
> 9.d5 is a more aggressive. I think it's a better reply.
> Black may be one tempo ahead on the attack, but White's bishop will
> save the day. Eg, 9.d5 exf3 10. dxc6 fxg2 11.cxb7+!
And that's why Black would reply (after 8. d4 e4 9. d5)
9... a6 10. Bf1 ef3 11. dc6 fg2 12. Bxg2 b6
with the better pawn-structure, e.g
13. Qd4 O-O 14. O-O Qg5 (or Re8 first)
and Black stands better in both the middle-game and the end-game.
Regards, Peter
--
AUS/TAS/DPIW/CIT/Servers hbt/lnd/l8 6233 3061 http://www.pjb.com.au
Pasar�, pasar�mos dice el agua y canta la verdad contra la piedra
-- Pablo Neruda
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Date: 23 Aug 2006 01:32:14
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.e3 d5
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Peter Billam wrote:
> Greetings. To replace my ageing 4. g3, I've been looking at
> 1.c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. e3 (A28)
Hi Peter,
I'm curious, why are you switching from 4.g3 to 4.e3? I checked the
tournament stats, and almost twice as many people play 4.g3 as 4.e3.
As I understand it, 4.e3 is safer early on (the king is well-protected,
Qc2 is protected from Nd4, e2 is an escape square for the knight). 4.g3
is riskier, but White has that fianchetto working for him if he can
manage to castle with his pawn structure in good shape.
I'm new to the English, so any insights are welcome.
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